Religion

I agree with some of your ideas, and as I agree I won’t repeat them ^^

I have to object on 2 proposals though. I don’t think it would be right to have human sacrifices if we find no clear evidence for the area and timeline AC is trying to recreate. Yes human sacrifices can be game-enticing, meaningful and all. But that is not a reason enough to add them because it is cool, because it is something huge or “for the lolz”. I personnaly care about the teaching this game carries within itself, and that’s why I think that if human sacrifices are not a thing, it would be wrong to depict that they were.

The second objection is about the effects of religion. I very much agree with positive effects like fertility rites improving fertility for example, because they could could work by bringing more awereness about mating, learning about menstrual cycles and other little details that could be implied and not necessarily shown nor depicted. In the other hand, I don’t like direct effects from gods, like the wrath of a god, as you said it. It may be a slip of the tongue, but I think direct intervention from gods on your settlement should be off the table. This would help depict better the History and sociology of religions, immersing the player better (in this same immersive approach, religions are deemed to evolve in upcoming expansions), and spare him from facing another superior entity other than the player himself. Neglecting gods should have an effect on your population and not these gods, pretty much like in Children of the Nile.

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So perhaps praying to God’s could potentially have a beneficial effect if the act of doing so might cause a behavioral change?

Focus - effect

Fertility - crops, childbirth( better survivability and better chance of fertility)
War - most likely to fear the enemy. More courage resulting and more likely victory.
Sun/Moon - crops, hunting, farming in general

Something like that? In each one of these cases, becoming aware of the details that they focus upon through their religion brings about positive benefit by simply being more alert to it.

A religion that focuses upon the Moon or the Sun might spend more time considering the changing of the seasons, which they will likely have lots of mythical stories and belief behind. They might be more in tune with the best times to harvest and plant as a result. They might get a farming bonus that they would a tribute to a god, while in reality it’s simply a result of them being more careful in their understanding of farming. This is definitely a workable solution which might give people the religious bonus they want while not bringing Gods into the equation.

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I would totally agree with the absence of any deus ex machina in the game - this deus ex machina being a flat modifier being applied that would allow a mathematical result.

One clear case to exemplify this would be if e.g. you make a sacrifice or ritual to any god or spirit related to agriculture and are sure to have a 15% higher harvest, or even have a 50% chance of having 15% harvest if you make this sacrifice or ritual.

However, I think like most of you that religion definitively should have an effect on the society you’re progressively building all along the game.

In my view, religion should serve two purpose in the game:

  1. unite the society around common values (but there’s nothing said by the devs around some sort of stability mechanism, so leaving that aside);
  2. define priorities (if you’re nearing the sea shore the society should highly regard everything around fishing; hunting if you’re in a huge forest map; war if you’re a warmonger; farming if the forest disappeared after a time, etc.).

In that sense, I think that this religion discussion echoes what I wrote elsewhere about economic specialization of the societies the nearer you come to Bronze Age. We know for example that Early Neolithic societies had no economic specialties – there were no “potter” per se, only people making ceramics as well as fishing, hunting, farming, etc… During Middle then Final Neolithic, settlements and people became increasingly specialized, when it became obvious that devoting most of their time to make e.g. ceramics or cheese, that could be traded off against another resource, was a viable way to proceed. That’s how whole settlements specialized around cheese, flax fabrics, wool, or flint mining.

What I suggested elsewhere around those economic specialties was to have something like a cap that would prevent any citizen to work more than x% of their time on what would be their favorite activity, the most natural to them according to their competencies. A great hunter should not be able to spend his whole days hunting before the end of Neolithic. Instead, in early game they should be able to work only something like 50% of their time on their favorite task, then with passing time, through e.g. technology progress (let’s say this would be a “social tech”) the cap would be ever higher, until reaching something like 80% of their time devoted to their most natural activity. This way, you could have real fishers, hunters, farmers, miners, etc. And even if warriors were not relevant as a “professional activity” in the Neolithic, nothing prevent you may try to create a warrior society, living by e.g. looting neighboring settlements or forcefully asking tributes to their unfortunate neighbors.

Probably religion should be seen the same way. If you give a huge importance in your game to farming (through rites, monuments, sacred places, etc.), this means you have your society stressing the importance of activities in this field. Having people working more in one peculiar field means they will have higher competencies that can be transmitted to the next generation, etc.
E.g. if you regularly attend farming rituals and have devoted lot of resources on your chiefs burials, this means you’ll have your citizens according more importance to farming and hierarchy, allowing as such your best farmers to use more of their time on farming and allowing higher harvest due to the fact they’re highly skilled, while the burials and hierarchical thing would create a nascent elite and a higher prestige when compared to neighboring settlements, etc.

In my sense, this would allow for a strategic gameplay, provided that each religion-related action would need a serious investment: when you make a farming ritual, that’s not only young boys looking with a natural interest in mind at girls dancing in the fields, that may also be a costly banquet and probably sacrifices reuniting every citizen in a devoted place, a.k.a. sacred place. The same when deciding to stress the importance of chiefs burial, this needs a certain amount of work from the whole community.
In each case, the resources needed for those actions (be it time, people, food, work, etc.) have an obvious cost, so you can’t easily focus on everything in the same time.

In gameplay terms, this means if you decide at first to develop farming so you have more food and more people, you’ll have to wait for developing hunting, fishing or hierarchy. But with your highly productive farmers (as they spend more time they develop higher competencies), you’re able to trade with this neighboring settlement that worked hard on mining.
But you also have to deal with this other settlement that decided to focus early on prestige and elites, and that have the relevant benefits (e.g. more favorable trade deals). This could make your own settlement a simple peripheral of theirs, so you have to decide when the situation’s becoming dangerous for your independence, and when to start launching a prestige race with cultural accomplishments (like building e.g. an enclosure or a menhir).
And, lastly, this would not prevent any polytheistic depiction in game, as you’d have no interest in specializing in one lone field. If you’re a community of highly proficient farmers lacking any other skill, you would have hard time using new techs to build better granaries despite all your neighbors have far more advanced building constructions through their involvement in building or tool-making. The direct consequence is you should define a priority through most impressive rituals and buildings, without forgetting that other aspects should not be utterly forgotten or you’d end up lagging behind, so meaning lot of other minor rituals around hunting, fishing, etc.

(Hmm. Far too long. Once again :laughing:)

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The religious belief system primarily played out in game is atheism. The devs have already declared that your religious practices and choices will not result in miracles, they have no effect at all it is just a placebo. If religion is pure placebo there are no gods.

I can understand that as a mechanic, however religion need not just be a morale modifier, it also effects diplomatic relations and might unlock, or close options both as societal actions and opportunities offered. Based on like mindedness or heretical opposition mostly but due to other factors too.

The story of how Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac occurred because surrounding peoples were questioning the faith of Abraham because his God did not demand the blood of the first born. So with the story of the sacrifice of Isaac under his belt Abraham could show that he had as much dedication as those who sacrificed their first born, but his God didn’t require that type of sacrifice anyway.

Reading between the lines here is you were the king of a city, and you had a child of sacrificable age you might have to choose to do so or not to. While religious the effects are political and deterministic even from an atheistic standpoint. Sacrifice a child and you prove your dedication to other Ensi, not do so and maybe you paint a target on your head as a weak ruler. Human sacrifice in any form other than the sacrifice of a personal heir and you create an atmosphere of fear with all its benefits and side effects, thord party human sacrifice lays a groundwork of fear as anyone could be next. If restricted to the players own heirs this dynamic is absent, so long as no other human sacrifice occurs, but it effects the availability of heirs and may certainly effect their loyalty. We don’t know whether the city leadership is depicted purely through the player of a dynasty but the potential for dad order an heir trussed up and placed in the altar should have major implications. Difficult choices are worthwhile choices for the quality of gameplay.

As always the wisdom of the Greeks applies as shown by the famed theatrical direction : “Medea must not kill her children on stage”. Temples have closed walls, horrible things can be left to a text report, and the ongoing accumulated scripture of the cities faith. Not only will the massively diverse options of how faiths operate be too big to display visually, but a lot of the content could be upsetting, or in the case of child sacrifice illegal in many countries.

Child sacrifice is important to the time period and as with the Greek theatrical notification it is acceptable for it to occur so long as it happens offstage. I want to refer back to the story of of how Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter Iphegenia to Artemis for safe passage for his fleet to Troy.
We can handle this as the ancient Greeks would (admittedly better highlighted in later periods) a player wants to undertake a massive project, such as a fleet invasion, building a massive edifice etc. Maybe they should go on and do it, maybe it requires a sacrifice to complete. Failure to perform the sacrifice once the people or priests demand it is necessary causes morale penalties and any ill luck will be blamed on the player. Say a random event causes a heatwave then (from the Hellenistic point of view for example) then the crops are cursed by Apollo (or Helios), which the priests will assume is caused because the player refused to sacrifice a daughter to Zeus when organising the construction of a towering majestic lighthouse. Now in global myth Apollo is having a spat with Zeus and it is the fault of your city state and leadership that this has occurred.
Myths self expand and take on political events and natural occurances and claim them as religious consequences and the games of the gods.

Every choice in a cities religion can and should have consequences. Psychological effects of blessing and curses should be in game, complete with psychosomatic effects and mitigation by counter sacrifice. An army that marches without the omens to back it should expect defeat and self doubt will cripple its chances for real.
A curse might not effect how the crops grow, but it will effect the efficiency of the harvest. Tell a farmer his harvest is cursed and borderline quality stalks of grain will more likely be condemned than added to store. Human psychology effects human effort in major ways.

I also find myself in complete agreement with cmurrsoultrain that religious choices should result in possible miracles. I think it would add a lot of depth to the game to add a supernatural element, and it is authentic as in this is what the ancient peoples would expect to happen. It should certainly be coded that religion can effect weather, crop yields and other global events.
I would take it no further than that, a sacrifice should be able to improve crop yields, but not turn a hostile Ensi into a friend directly.

However the real miracles option should be a pregame tick box, chosen before play, either your city belongs in the mythic age or as a hardcore sim. I will not say ‘reality’ as the atheists may be wrong and a game is not the best place for that judgement call.

We could go further and have Gilgamesh-esque divine champions with sagas written around them. I would love that, but it would have to be a strictly optional on/off feature. Most likely requring DLC or mod.

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I understand, and I agree with you! Religion being a placebo (the atheistic point of view) is no restraint when considering all these effects.

We certainly aren’t familiar with the same version of the Bible ^^’ Are you talking about the very real events that inspired the writing of the Binding of Isaac passage?

In my opinion, you’re taking literary sources too literally. You cannot cite the Bible or greek tragedies to back up historical facts, even if they relate to religion. They are not accurate depictions of the religious practices of the time. I cannot cite from the top of my head any human sacrifice made in the name of modern (when I say modern, I mean post-scriptures, during the existence and practice of the religion itself) judaism, christianity, or islam (I admit I know less about judaism and Islam but aren’t those three religions supposed to be related? :')
Those texts are not to be taken as historical sources, rather texts that have learnings to them, from which you can build a society, an organised religion. Greek tragedies depict mythical times the greeks were convinced they existed, but we know now that these mythical times were very different from what is told in the epics and plays. Very much like religious texts, we cannot take them at face value, but rather as, again, a spectacle which entertains, serves as catharsis, teaches and gives a sense of community and belonging.


Yes. 100% agree.


Even if I could do with that, I just want to point out that I prefer Children of the Nile’s take on this: if the flood of the banks of the Nile is unsatisfactory, it will cause unrest because they’re convinced you haven’t honoured Sobek right. Now, maybe there is a hard coded modifier that increases your chances of good flood if you build many Sobek shrines/temples, but I do not know about that… (and that is also the main reason why I could do with a system of “miracles”).

Why not, provided they are light enough.

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That’s true.
We will depict personal and social religion consequences, which is enough to give religion the importance it deserves in a realistic way.

This will not happen, but bad or good crops, or other random but natural effects, may be interpreted as miracles and have its religious consequences.

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Not to be pedantic, but atheism is not related to weather there are or are not gods, it only address is whether you believe in them.

Atheism simply means that you do not believe sufficient evidence has been presented for the existence of a deity. The belief that there is, affirmatively, no deity, is anti theism, which is actually more illogical then theism.

I say this as an atheist lol

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We certainly aren’t familiar with the same version of the Bible ^^’ Are you talking about the very real events that inspired the writing of the Binding of Isaac passage?

I am looking at the story of the sacrifice of Isaac (or Esau in Moslem tradition) from the point of view of a religious historian and not a theologist, even though that places me with the opposite hat.

Ok, so straight up. I am a Christian, and do believe in a supernatural God, but I am looking at the story with more neutral eyes.

in these times blood sacrifice as a major part of the religious politics, sacrificing family members meant that you were a hardcore bloke, unafraid to make sacrifices (literally) and make a personal price of burdens. This made you worth following. In a metaculture that honours such sacrifices not doing them would have political consequences. If you didn’t sacrifice a family member at need to the gods, you were a half hearted weak leader, unworthy of following and most likely despised by the gods too.

The Abraham and Isaac story make sense, the God of Israel doesn’t demand human sacrifice, and the story is a work around. You can take it as a God-miracle or as a piece of political spin, it works either way.

In my opinion, you’re taking literary sources too literally.

I totally disagree. These stories would be believed and were relevant to the times. Human sacrifice was not a feature of Hellenistic Greece, but is mentioned from earlier stories, I personally things this helps authenticate them. Agamemnon or the person who resembles the character lived shortly before the Bronze Age Collapse.
Right timeline for this type of behaviour.

Atheism simply means that you do not believe sufficient evidence has been presented for the existence of a deity. The belief that there is, affirmatively, no deity, is anti theism, which is actually more illogical then theism.

In theory maybe, maybe this is how you see it. However in practice atheism has a strong religiosity to it. All too often the same people platform it was a lack of belief not a belief in lack, but then get triggered when facing the religious.
Yes atheism can be strong agnosticism, but it is far more common for atheists to be strongly anti-religious to that extent that there is no difference between their position and that of a hardcore religious fundamentalist.
Richard Dawkins is good example of a religious fanatic who differs from most other religious fanatics only in that he believes that number of gods = 0.
This can visibly occur with atheism as ‘state religion’, most forms of Communism come to mind here.

I do not place the atheism of this game in that category though. The devs are making a pure historical sim and are leaving out unknown factors. I can respect that decision.

I still would like a supernatural mythic version of this game with heroes and active pantheons, but I think that should be late addition DLC or mod.

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Yes, they were believed, and yes they were extremely relevant. Origin myths explain the foundation of civilizations and they were believed to be true. But they were primarily concieved to justify moral decisions, laws, traditions, religious practices, not to talk of the modification of real events into legends, epics and religious texts to strenghthen the sense of belonging into a nation/religion/group.

Mmmh… Not really for the Atlantic Coast nor the Neolithic, not for mythical tales as the greek, or one of the Religions of The Book. However, concerning the island of Ireland and and kind of fitting the late Neolithic-Bronze Age there could be Cú Chulainn’s story, explaining the origin of Celtic Ireland, although this particular hero shows similarities with other indo-european heroes, such as the persian Rostan, or Herakles. This also suggests myths can be originated in languages and oral tradition rather than real facts. The earliest texts on irish mythology can be dated back to the middle ages, and not further.

It is a pretty solid idea, although I think it won’t come out as a DLC; it is not what AC aims for. Still, I’d be very interested in a mod that would bring a modern interpretation of origin myths (also meaning making sense of “godly interventions” and make them believable :wink: ) !

Exciting discussion, many good arguments from all.
I think too

The topic is just too complex.
There is the faith of every single member of society. Then the religion. Then the impact of religion on society, both internally and externally. Does religion play the same role for each individual? Is the people a sect or a community? Example “curse” - one is depressed, the other laughs and curses back. I think a “divine power” that controls everything we can exclude, so a human sacrifice will only benefit or harm the spectators. It will not affect the course of the sun, the harvest or the weather. But the interpretation of an “enlightened one” must be believed - or not. That’s just how religion works.
In our time, we have more knowledge, which automatically makes us atheists - from a Neolithic point of view. But that’s where the core of the problem of playability lies. Or better, the understanding of requirements for authenticity. Guess, this is very individual and can only be presented as an option or DLC.

And we should not forget that religion has been hampering development and progress for hundreds of years. Using the example of the decay of the Roman Empire, we see how the introduction of a state religion was directed towards tolerance and progress. Result was “the dark Middle Ages”

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Tolerance had nothing to do with it even then.
Religion of itself is usually harmless, it is the political ends to which it is put.

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Not to beat a dead horse, but finally just read the other responses that have happened since I last checked.

All I’m saying is, seek and ye shall find. If you seek proof there is no god, you’ll find things that support that. If you seek proof there is a god (or gods) you’ll find it. I believe in Christ. I could list off so many personal proofs and miracles that prove to me God is there but in the end it’s up to the individual to choose.

I would just appreciate that those of all faiths (including atheism, agnosticism, or anti-theism (because all those beliefs are exactly that—beliefs— belief whether there is higher power or not. None of us having any unquestionable proof for or against)) would avoid swinging blows at the Catholic Church (I’m not even catholic) or state religion or organized religion or atheism etc basically just don’t take shots at other people’s spiritual beliefs

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On the subject of religion, would it be possible for communities to start believing in one of their own ancestors?
Take Telos in Skyrim for example, a man that did a heroic deed that the people started to worship.

So for the game let’s say an enemy civilization decides to attack you with a massive army and you have a warrior that defended your village and then passed away, your warriors start to invoke his name before going into battle and as the heroic deeds of him travels through the decendants it becomes sort of like a deity for your civilization.

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There are others who practice child sacrifice, in the ancient Hebrew era. I just wonder if this is just opening the Pandora’s box and like the game that had school shooter that human or more specifically child sacrifice is some how wrong. Just thinking out loud and pondering to deep.

Trouble is badbear, some decisions on inclusion are up to the artistic choices of the developers and the focus of the game.
Some however are limited by hard regulation.

Child sacrifice MUST be airbrushed out, regardless of our wishes for or against, and regardless of historicity. Computer games and simulations are forbidden under US, EU and Australian law (and likely others) from permitting a player to make a choice to kill children. Now children can die, but only off screen and as a result of a general massed killing. So if a village is destroyed the children may be considered dead too, there is no need for a game to include children surviving and running away. But that is as far as it goes.

Uncasual doesn’t have a choice in the matter, there will be no child sacrifices. Were this to be ignored and child sacrifice included the game will not pass minimum requirements for sale and will be forcably withdrawn until Uncasual complies with restricted content legislation.

Uncasual may include adult human sacrifice or animal sacrifice with fewer legal limitations. Gruesome detail may invoke a higher classification for release, but unlikely will exheed that. Historicity allows some leeway but not much. .

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I still think that a good way to deal with child death, for example during a raid, is to have the children run off into the woods and disappear proportionate to the population. That way we don’t know what happens to them and we don’t see anything bad, but we end up with the same effect.

As for sacrifice, I honestly am not sure how prevalent child sacrifice would be in the Neolithic. I can’t say much for later periods, but children were of extreme importance in the Neolithic. We see this in much of their artwork. I can’t deny the possibility of it occurring, but I don’t see much evidence for it and it seems counter to there entire belief system, what little we can discern of it.

There is some evidence for adult sacrifice, and there are definitely occurrences of children in mass graves, though these children were probably the result of a massacre. In that situation, my first paragraph would apply.

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One way to obfuscate child deaths is for the game to include a forced transition sequence taking children out of focus, then removing them. It can be handled this way.

You are playing the game when someone cries out “Oh no, raiders!”
The computer takes control of your point of view and shows the raiders arriving from off screen. When point of view control is returned to the player you will see the community preparing or panicking etc but no children are rendered. They are assumed to be indoors or hiding or otherwise gone. Play continues as normal as you defend your settlement or run from the raiders, with a ‘children missing’ value allocated depending on performance.

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That is certainly another valid way to handle it. These methods can be used to provide the realism that is implicit in such a game as ancient cities, while meeting ESRB ratings and preventing a major stink.

That is a cool idea.

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The above example is scalable for any disaster in which human control is a factor. So a warning of incoming raiders could be replaced by a focus shift to see a tsunami, or fire. Thus in any case where player interaction is a factor children are removed from play and their fate is tied to general performance.
Completely arbitrary events such as plagues or famine can include child deaths, but choices to include or exclude children from medical care prioritising are removed from the player. As for child deaths, they still must occur offscreen, however children who are sick can be assumed to be in huts, caves or buildings (this must be regardless of availability of actual cover) so the law is obeyed and on screen child deaths are not depicted. If it means there is always a tent or lean to for sick or dying children then that will have to be.

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