Religion

All in all, I think the most difficult thing will be to have the appearance of the known religions in later eras, when the DLCs will be released.

Just taking an example: if you begin a game as a Roman city in Roman Era, it’s easy to have the Roman polytheism with all their gods and rituals.

The trouble will be if you begin for instance a Mediterranean, coastal village in Neolithic and want to play your game until the Roman era when this will available via DLCs. How to have the Roman religion appearing in game? Just having a world event saying “Hey dude, the Roman religion just appeared, do you want to adopt it?” would be quite lame.

So I thought a bit, and strangely my thought went from most recent eras to older ones – with a little sum up at the end.


I think what has been said so far about the world events could be very useful there (despite what I just said). After all, such a “discovery” of any new religion on the world map, same as it seems it will be done for technologies, could fit perfectly with any monotheism religion, as Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which were quite exclusive for most of their history. So there’s a clear choice for the player, while still having the choice between various schools (e.g. the various sects for Judaism, basic distinctiveness between pre-eastern/pre-western Christianity, various regards on the Muslim Califs in Islam, etc.). And as those eras are also (for what I know of it!), because of their exclusivity, the period when religious wars are clearly a major historical feature.

One step earlier: Antiquity polytheisms.
When launching a new game in this era, maybe a similar set of choices could be offered to the player, e.g. choosing to give more importance to the Aventine triad/Capitoline Triad/deified emperors (or even kings) if playing in a Roman context.
Aside of that, it still would be possible to “import” foreign gods, as the Romans and most other people did (I’m looking towards Mesopotamia, Greece, Gauls where the foreign gods were considered the same as the local gods with other names, and sometimes their cults were just imported as such, like for Mithra in the Roman Empire).

Still one step earlier, for the very Neolithic/Ice Age eras, when those polytheistic beliefs were about to appear. There still could be choices to make when playing the game from the Neolithic/Ice Age, and evolving until the possibility to adopt the known religions.
So maybe, depending on the world map context it could be done this way: you define progressively your own religion, while there is a progressive appearance on the world map of a partially know religion with local gods (either they are Mesopotamian, Gaulish, Egyptian, Greek, etc.), via events. Then either you stick to your own religion, or choose progressively to get more in conformity with the dominant religion randomly chosen for your world map.


So, to sum it up after this reverse chronological thinking: I think maybe one good solution would be, when you launch a game in the Neolithic era, that there is a known religion randomly decided but kept hidden, depending on the world context (so that you avoid Gaulish gods when playing a map furiously looking like Egypt).
Then for each event adding another historical layer to the religion/belief/spirituality on the world map, you get the choice to stick to your own choices or adopt the common trend.

I know, I know. Uncasual Game guys (if they’ve been courageous enough to read this looong wall of text until now!) are now rolling their eyes and saying to themselves: "Hey, Roman/Greek/Mesopotamian eras are for after release, we’ve got more urgent things to think about!"
To this obvious remark I’ll answer: yup, but having the system thought out before you have to redesign everything may be better.
As for the “switch off” button: maybe this could avoid those choices for players who just want to don’t meddle with such things in their games. So, if their world context is set to e.g. “Celtic”, they progressively see the Celtic religion appearing in their town, with predefined gameplay related. This would probably cut them from one part of the meaningful and fun choices that could be made – but to be clear studying a pas society forgetting the higher importance of spirituality in those eras would have the same effect of being only a partial reconstruction.
The major benefit would be it would allow the devs to have to deal with insane balance things if one whole part of the game is just scrapped out.

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Let me for once try to write something short, by saying that I agree with @Elfryc in this: it’s better to have thought out, or at least easily moddable system from the start, than dealing with a complete overhaul later on.

Hopefully though, a very light presence of religion in the game, in which its main function is to keep citizens happy by building temples and shrines to different gods associated with different events or phenomena, and arranging festivals; such a very light presence of religion won’t be contentious or difficult to modify. If Greek paganism comes to your city, and more and more citizens ask for Greek pagan stuff… well, just build a temple of Athena next to the “shrine of Wotan” or the “holy grove of Hathor” :stuck_out_tongue: It doesn’t have to be more difficult than that!

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During the Neolithic parts, you would probably have lots of little rituals. People would dance in the fields to purify them before planting or hold a fertility ritual before the planting/harvest. Also, rites of age. Nothing too fancy, but likely integrated into daily life.

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Just like peasant culture barely more than a century ago in most of Europe. Life was filled with small traditions, habits, rituals, festivals and holy days. Part religion, part culture. I guess events could again lead the player, while allowing the player to decide a bit?

“Young X has reached his age of manhood, how shall we mark this occasion?”
“Our elders claim the shortest day of the year approaches, what shall we do?”
(“Let us burn bonfires all night, to ward off evil!” / “We must sacrifice something of great value!” / “Let us stay indoors all day, and let the spirits claim the lands this one day!”, “It doesn’t matter, the light will surely come again!”, etc)

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Yes! Under the Flax Farming topic I wrote a little narrative about such farming which includes an example of a ceremony like this.


Flax!

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Linen, and therefore flax, is truly a underestimated material today, and also in our knowledge of history, culture and other things… no flax in Banished for example!

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I have spun and women in many times. Under the Clothing thread are many examples lol
I love flax! \o/

This Anatolian priestess wears a string skirt made from flax as she prays. Her shawl is linen and the strings holding the feathers to her arms are flax cord.

Many plants were grown and used for clothing (mostly flax/cotton).

I would love religion having little to no in game benefits and be much more something you would work into your society in different (customizable) ways for more or less “role play” purposes. If anything it could be used as a way to shape your tribe’s cyclical seasonal behaviors and maybe eventually daily lives. If we really want to put some in game effect I think healing might be the most appropriate.

I would also really love to see different, mutually exclusive buildings and behaviors your people could adopt so maybe you build stone buildings and sacrifice people or maybe you dance around a fire singing prayers and then feast. or maybe you build stone monuments and feast.

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I’ll try to be shorter also :smirk:

I guess this could be a possibility for people that don’t want religion in their games. However, there’s two points that would irks me quite a bit in such a case:

  1. It would feel strange to have such a nice system regarding techs, with a smooth evolution and nicely well-thought discoveries made outside of the map, but just having a basic system (AoE-like: 1 house = such number of inhabitants) regarding one of the most fundamental part of social life.
  2. Paradox games show that piling up modifiers may create interesting games. I’m not sure that’s really what the devs are looking for though. As for me, I’m not sure I’d like to play AC in a competitive way, but preferably as an experience.

In this peculiar domain of religion, I’ll quote two people:

[quote=“Grigor, post:45, topic:634, full:true”]
Just like peasant culture barely more than a century ago in most of Europe. Life was filled with small traditions, habits, rituals, festivals and holy days. Part religion, part culture. I guess events could again lead the player, while allowing the player to decide a bit? [/quote]

As a French, I’m always amazed by the incapacity of most of my countrymen to understand the weight of religion or beliefs in daily life before the 1905 law that created the current laicity system in France. Today, in my country we consider “religion” being a distinct field, as “economy”, “politics”, “society”, “sciences”, etc.
I guess now most non-French people are now scratching their head and mumbling a word ending with “…og” and beginnign with “fr…”.
But clearly, religion/belief was something in everything in daily life, in power, in social relations, etc., and as such should deserve a very important place in the game as this should have consequences in every other aspect of the game.

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Religion is a questionable thing, and a touchy subject. However, the creators made it seem like we won’t have direct control of our people in game.

We will be a leader, but they won’t always listen.
If we choose to be able to make a religion. I think we should have to prove it to our village. Give them a reason to follow your religion over their personal choice.

If we did it that way. It wouldn’t have to be a mechanic that we all must follow, however one we choose to implement.

More people i believe would be happy with this.

Think, more exciting in this regard should be another question. When and why did the first homosapnia come to the conclusion that there must be a “higher power”. How did he come to the term “God”?
From this position to the levels of “faith” and on to “religion” it is certainly a piece of road.

what predestined us?

… or even so. A question of legitimation or a form of belief in our abilities. Whether this already fulfills the reality of religion - uncertain.

I am neither an academic nor an historian, but whatever belief system individuals or villages or tribes use/follow there will surely be waxing and waning of the uptake and fervour towards that belief system purely based on how the people perceive their prayers/sacrifices/shrines/rituals to be working or not. There may be some coercion or encouragement from leaders to obey or respect such a belief or beliefs and people will react accordingly, some will become more engaged some will become less engaged because they don’t like being told what to do or think.

TL:DR It is going to be a hugely complex subject. I suspect the best path is to see what the devs can give us, try it in play in the beta and provide feedback in time honoured fashion for them to make what changes they can to improve gameplay.

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[quote=“Paul_W, post:53, topic:634, full:true”]TL:DR It is going to be a hugely complex subject. I suspect the best path is to see what the devs can give us, try it in play in the beta and provide feedback in time honoured fashion for them to make what changes they can to improve gameplay.
[/quote]

My answer would be a “yes, but…”

“Yes”, because we’re now just discussing and suggesting, maybe indirectly, some leads for the devs, on which they may work on using what’s currently done in the engine, even if this is simplified, expanded, quite modified, etc.
For instance, it seems they have clearly an idea on how the techs will work. Some fields are clearly blurry yet (and how would that not be?) so it may be a precious help for them.

“… but” because there is also to take into account one fact: if we may hopefully consider the beta then the first release being quite a crude version of the game in 5 years, this also means that some features will be considered “nice”, “ok”, “meh” or “bad” when the beta then the release build will be opened to us.

Then, with each DLC the priority will be to improve the “bad” and “meh”, then progressively the “ok” and “nice”, depending if any better idea appears.

So, or goal is clearly to avoid as much as possible that “bad” or “meh” sneak in the beta – not even the first public version, but the beta. Even if we know some things will have to be improved, either voluntarily or not, because of more devs in the team, more credits, more time to think, more ideas, more tests, etc.

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Oh I completely agree, but I just didn’t make it clear. This type of discussion should, hopefully, be very useful for the devs to get a good stab at it first off, within the limitations of what they can achieve with the available time and resources. Then, we (they) fine tune on the back of the beta testing and our feedback.

My intention was to outline some of the things that may contribute to that approach. For me it is about the gameplay and so I would like to see the rise and fall in popularity and influence of a belief system over time as that would be, IMHO, both realistic and good for the gameplay. But also accepting that it may not be possible to incorporate such nuances in the first pass.

Whilst I am sure we all want to see a really good beta, we may just have to accept that because of a lack of time, resource or both, some aspects of the beta gameplay may not be fully and beautifully formed.

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Woops, my bad, I didn’t understood like it that.

I obviously agree, as for every game having a long development story (which is the stated goal by the devs – I wish them (and us! :innocent:) all of luck for that) points of view may change and a successful game allows greater resources.

Yes, we read all the comments and suggestions in the forum and all them are very useful to us.

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And you weep when seeing that @Grigor and I still posted a few walls of text :nerd:

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You can bet.

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LOL :laughing:

I literally write novels, but do not write replies that long. I dump them into text to speech and listen to them on the way to work.

That being said, some really good stuff can be found in those walls of text, so I hope people read the many way =)

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