Gender Roles - Female Warriors/Defenders

Really the only thing that is for sure, is that no one from this ages live in the Neolithic.

Thats it, simply as that.

The basics tell us that maybe in each tribe will be a diferent World, rules, knowledge, etc.

Also the begining of the history told us that it was a change from the matriarcal World into the patriarcal way.

I think that AC is free of do what they think with the genre roles, but common sense tell us that in a small comunity, each individual matters, and the most developed the skills and merits will mark a diference.

If you got a tribe of 40 that the half are the “warriors” and they are the only ones that hunt and defend, you have a great posibility that your tribe will be erased.

If you got a tribe of 40 in wich everyone develops his/her best skills, your tribe will survive.
Simply as that.

Waiting for the BETA!!! :wink:
Best

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The evidence also agrees largely with this. Many of the Western European Neolithic tribes appear to have had a lot of infighting among males, accounting for the Infamous y-DNA Bottleneck event where the ratio of women to men may have been as bad as 17 to 1. Current modeling suggest that this was likely the result of fighting between Clans, apparently patriarchal.

But when we look at societies that did not show much evidence of such activity, such as Catalhoyuk in Neolithic Anatolia, the ratio of men to women is pretty even, as our egalitarians indicators, such as bone density, tooth decay and artistic representation.

So we see that societies that are more egalitarian tend to fare better then those who are gender polarized. Of course, the fact that one Society does better than the other does not mean the Lesser Society does not exist. Societies which show high evidence for patriarchal clan warfare and massacres did a rather okay job of surviving, such as the Linear Pottery Culture.

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I’ve tried to read through most, if not all of the huge discussion, with many elucidating points brought up by engaged fans, and I’m sure the developers have done the same, and will implement, or have implemented them, in the game.

Now, apart from the debate back and forth whether something was unheard of, rare, uncommon, common, or everyday… where does the game stand on all this? The developers seem (and forgive me if I’ve misunderstood) to have established that:

  • women in the game will generally, and on average, be about 10-20 % physically weaker than men,
  • they will be able (I guess depending on age and a random individual factor?) to be pregnant, which will restrict their available tasks somewhat,
  • they will also breastfeed the young, up to a certain age, which might also restrict their available time?,
  • there will otherwise not be any general rules or norms or regulations or similar, restricting females from performing certain tasks, or taking on any role, from the onset of the game,
  • already in the first release version of the game, the player will be able to “push” the societal development of the tribe, by making choices in triggered events (“the gods clearly do not mean for X, what shall we do?”), that in time might make our tribes more or less like something @lotus253 or @Orlanth or someone else would bring up in an example. Our tribe might become unique, or very standard, we’ll just have to see next year :wink:

Did I miss anything?

I guess these practical concerns are made easier by the fact that the earlier hunter-gatherer societies of the early neolithicum, seem (I believe this is the consensus?) to have been generally more equal in regards to sex, or at least devoid of the later strict, rigid differentiation between men and women, that would come in the later ages. Thus, the release version of the games doesn’t have to delve so deep into these matters. The coming expansions however… Maybe we should start a new thread on gender roles in the chalcolithicum?

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That’s a very good sum up @Grigor :+1:
(that kind of thing I seem unable to do myself :expressionless:).

However, I think that as soon as the Neolithic (i.e. base game) we should have great opportunities to shape our own society, without waiting for any Chalcolithic DLC. The basis for this is that given the span in time and space, it is highly probable that very different societies appeared in Atlantic Europe in Neolithic. Probably there were matriarchies as well as patriarchies, egalitarian as well as highly stratified societies, or peaceful and warmongering cultures. Introducing Mesolithic people in the equation still makes the thing more obvious.

Gameplay wise, this means that if, for instance, you begin the game with your own society still to be shaped, and every surrounding settlements are “utopian” societies (egalitarian, peaceful gender-equality, basically the “noble savage” for Rousseau), the player should be proposed various options:

  • either he feels that’s sufficient to have good relations with surrounding settlements, and may engage in trade, diplomacy, intermarriages, etc. and try to achieve cultural achievements (grander enclosure, more people and resources, becoming a regional cultic/economic center…) and be perfectly fine with that;
  • or he finds more fun to become a warmongering society, able to impose his authority on surrounding settlements and establish something like a regional chiefdom, able to collect tributes as people, slaves, prisoners, resources, labor, etc.

In the following centuries though, whatever the path chosen in early game, the player should also be presented with situations where he may change his stance. What if he’s a pacifist but he’s facing a wave of militaristic and highly stratified migrants or invaders? As migrants, will this new culture create instability in his own settlement, obliging to adopt a more stratified society to keep peace? Will he stick to older traditions? If this is an invasion, wouldn’t it be easier to have nascent social and economical elites, able to defend the settlement more efficiently with more militaristic values?

I really liked @lotus253 last post, just above yours. But I’d go further and think that more than trying to define if there were egalitarian vs. inegalitarian societies, the key to survival is adaptation: whatever the first steps of you nascent society, you should have mechanism making you able to change or to refuse change. The fact for example we see constant changes in graves during Neolithic, with personal graves for leaders, then communal graves, then back to individual graves, etc. shows such adaptations were probably felt as necessary, or (more probably) those slow-pacing, unconscious evolutions were needed to be survive.

Also, such a flexible society would allow a great flexibility and more fun in game probably. Lotus’ post drove me to think about a question similar to “chicken or egg: what came first?”
I mean: if we have a perfect egalitarian society being just a juxtaposition of family heads or elders taking decisions together based on greater good, probably it would be difficult to reach the hierarchy level needed to major achievements (Carnac, Stonehenge, massive graves or enclosures, etc.). This means there would be far less leadership. But as soon as you need to raise even a smaller standing stone, you need someone to lead the operations (which may be done quite naturally, depending on charisma, sense of organization, higher prestige…), but all in all that’s the first step towards an increasing inner leadership in your society, that you may either try to limit to keep to an egalitarian society, or set yellow lines to this increasing tendency to avoid to much instability from non-leading groups, or just embrace and follow a natural tendency achievement > increasing inequalities > higher achievements > greater inequalities, etc. until most people refuse this, leave your settlement, make a “revolution” and get rid of any leader felt as tyrannical, etc.

I may be biased towards the social and political aspects in this game, but I really feel this should be still far more interesting than just what’s available in most city builders: reaching such tech level to be able to level up your buildings then get higher modifiers and better troops, etc.
If A.C. does well (and I think that’s very probable), we should not just strive for higher levels, but just ask ourselves if we really want them and face the necessary outcomes going along with them :blush:

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Wonderful thoughts! Also, @Grigor 's post could be used as a summary for the whole thread, really.

One point of clarity though: when I speak of egalitarianism, I don’t refer to any sort of harmony or peaceful coexistence, merely a reasonably similar accommodation between genders. You can have, for example, a matriarchy wear leadership is past down the female line and elder women cold significant leadership power, yet the men can be War like, in control for the most part and dominating. Look no further then some Native American tribes to see this system and work, such as, I believe, the Iroquois.


(their story is seen here)

It is also believed that during the Neolithic, Clan Warfare among males resulted in a y DNA chromosomal drop so significant that apparently the ratio of males to females may have been 1 to 17 at some points. We also know that we had Mass Graves where younger women were not found can high percentage, inferring slavery. So the picture wasn’t necessarily nice, even if there were matriarchal and egalitarians societies.

That being said, of course we’ll never know if a woman was among the warriors. The only thing we will know is that it’s physically possible and that we have examples of it in history, but that’s about all we can tell unless we ever find direct examples, which I doubt we will

In other words, we come back to the same conclusion: the game should be built in such a way that everything that was (reasonably) possible in history, regardless of whether it was rare or not, should be possible in the game. All levels of gender equality or inequality, all levels of egalitarianism or tyranny, all levels of whatever.

To make it doable, the developers will need to simplify it into a certain set of variables, with a couple of levels to each variable. These variables dynamically interact with the realities of the game, reinforcing or weakening one another.

For example, let’s say a the “culture” or “society” sliders of a specific tribe are set in such a way that it is what could simplistically be called a patriarchy, let’s even make it a militant patriarchy. The men of the tribe constantly being victorious against other tribes probably reinforces the legitimacy of the militant patriarchy. If however almost all the adult males are killed in a raid, maybe the legitimacy is lost? In the absence of men, maybe the society automatically moves towards a matriarchy? All the sliders might not change completely, and certainly not over night, so that we suddenly have a peaceful matriarchy… but maybe, after a while, it becomes a militant matriarchy instead of patriarchy? New generations are raised to obey their mothers in all, especially the tribal matriarch? A ridiculously simplified example:
[IF proportion of males in tribe UNDER 10 % = MOVE 1 step TOWARDS matriarchy]

I must stress that my suggestion does not only apply to the gender issue, but also other aspects. Let’s say the fish in the lake next to our village suddenly disappear, and the animals we most often hunt migrate away for some reason. At the same time our esteemed shaman suddenly drops dead in the middle of a nightly ceremony. Soon, the lower members of our stratified (sliders!) tribe might start to blame the current elite for the events, leading to a series of escalations, and finally a bloody resolution, through which the former elite is sacrificed, and the tribe becomes much more of a fundamentalist, theocratic even, tribe. Or… the old elite is replaced with a new one, with more legitimacy? If all the necessary requirements are filled, and randomness of the game wills it… why not? Up to the player, the invisible hand of fate!

As always, I propose these changes be made through generous use of triggered events with choices for the player. Go with the flow… or no. With consequences to either.

As an example: one of the realm law screens from Crusader Kings II, and the policies screen from Europa Universalis III. Notate bene that the CKII one contains a slider for women’s’ rights. It take a lot of hard work, but one make, say, the Holy Roman Empire, accept female generals, in 1245 :wink: Surely then, an amazon tribe must be possible in 8000 BC, eh @lotus253? :smiley:

Of course, most of what is expressed in the sliders won’t be applicable to the neolithic era… though mind you, even the tribe chieftains of Poland in the 8th century AD could change the slider so that his vassals sent him more warriors when the time came to send out a great raiding party. Should not chieftain Ugga-Bugga be able to do the same with the neighbouring village that sends us tribute every autumn, @Elfryc? :smiley:

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_“G3230.jpg,” Stanford Figurines Project , accessed September 19, 2018, https://web.stanford.edu/group/figurines/cgi-bin/omeka/items/show/6833._

Yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. We often refer to Neolithic people of a particular group, such as the corded Ware culture, as being of a homogeneous societal culture, like we see in later time periods. In reality, we only know that they shared some technological similarities, and perhaps some artistic cultural similarities, but we don’t know much more than that. There could have been wide-ranging expressions of their cultures covering many different types of society. The model you propose, I believe, best allows for this.

So that is nearly the main plot of my third novel LOL

Hmmm, Dear Uncasual games.

I do believe that there were some women who took up the spear and the bow; however, that may have been a very rare occurrence.

If If you are looking for realism, I suggest that you guys read up on the history of the ancient world and note human nature and biology before you make your decision.

Your contributor: Eric Johnson. :slight_smile:

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Going for realism doesn’t mean we can’t explore alternatives.The world isn’t perfect but this is a game. Let us choose how to play.

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The only real issue I had was ensuring women could be warriors/hunters, not ensuring they would. We really have no evidence either way on the subject. I totally agree that the player, who controls the culture, should control how that happens.

Of course, I will personally be egalitarian, but that’s just me.

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So i’m not really fussed about whether females will be able to fight. But I think a practical and logical work around would be enough to make people happy.

Women being able to bear children were much more valuable than a man who could easily be replaced. It would make sense to limit their activities so as to always have a viable mate. However, once the number of women reaches a certain level (maybe % of population or a set number) there should be an option to allow women to train for fighting. But should there be a war in which a lot of women die then they would be restricted again.

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The issue we were origionally discussing was not really about women warriors. It was more about women being able to help defend, hunting, and (maybe on rare conditions) becoming warriors. We know all of these occured in later periods, but we have little evidence either way for the Neolithic

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Fighting, hunting are all the same thing focused on the same qualities so that’s why I suggested a point at which, when females are not burdened with child rearing, can do these things

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Well, sort of. Hunting is often not anywhere near as dangerous as fighting. When people speak of hunting, ideas of large animals and many hunters bravely fighting to bring down the large animal come to mind. In reality, a large percentage of animals caught and killed for hunting would be rather small. Fish, rabbits, birds and other such creatures are quite safe to hunt and comprise a large percentage of the animals killed in tribal Society, at least in recorded contemporary examples. I posted a few months ago something about Amazon tribes where it was discussed that women made up well over half of the hunting within the tribe.

Now when it comes to Warfare, there seems to be enough evidence from the Neolithic collapse of the Y DNA variations to show that men were likely the primary combatants. There isn’t a lot of evidence showing battle injuries among Neolithic people. As a possible supposition, perhaps people killed in combat in the Neolithic we’re simply discarded, their bones not surviving until modern times. More carefully inhumed corpses did survive. This is somewhat supported by several Mass Graves found showing injuries to both men and women, preserved because of the mass grave. I’m not suggesting men and women both fought, just that both of them were preserved because of the grave) can assume that many examples occurred where the deceased were simply left as they fell.

I would say the likelihood of a woman warrior would be very low, though not nonexistent. This would also be partially informed by the culture, which may develop social mores against women in Warfare for some of the same reasons that you have mentioned, although perhaps religiously-motivated as well. I would go on to say that a woman would certainly take up arms against enemies in the defense of her tribe if it did not seem that any other outcome but death was the alternative or to save her children. That would make the women perhaps impromptu Defenders, though I don’t think active defense would be there initial motivation, more of a last resort.

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True. What we need to consider is, what type of weaponry is available. Melee combat is predominantly strength based (and skill obviously :slight_smile: ) in which case an average man is 1,5 times stronger, than the average woman. In a 1 vs 1 this means, women will almost always lose against a man. But. If we take projectile weapons, strength becomes less a deciding factor. Although more strength means bigger range and/or penetrating power (this will become important with armor of any kind). Nevertheless, if you already have bows, than I see no real reason, why women could not go hunting or even participate in combat. Especially in a fight-or-die situation.

Realistically, I would think, that in a raid against another tribe, you would not send any women since their reproductive value is to great to risk it. But if you are attacked by another tribe and you are threatened by annihilation, every hand on the wall, so to speak, increases your chance of survival in the short term. Historically there were several examples, that defenders were joined by the women, as a last resort. On the other hand, every dead woman decreases the chance of survival of your tribe in the long term so your you have a vested interest not to let the situation come to this point.

Another important factor in combat is experience. Skill can counteract (to a certain extent) a difference in strength. So if you are a risk taker, you could try to send a bunch of women on low risk raids to let them gain valuable experience and create your amazon elite unit of your dreams :slight_smile: . Just keep in mind: numbers can counteract any kind of difference in strength or skill. If your tribe breeds like rabbits, any elite unit can be overwhelmed by numbers. Which leads us back to the reproductive value of women. Risk them in combat (or dangerous hunting) and your population might stagnate or even implode. While the neighboring tribe triples in numbers and soon you will have a horde at your gates.

Ultimately, I say it should be up to the player, which rout to take. But reality reigns supreme.

I’ve never been comfortable with the idea of reducing women to reproductive value only. When you’re not a man, it sort of stands out when you read it.

Women have been documented throughout history in Warfare, from the steppe Warriors from the European plains all the way to the Picts. These Warriors who are often described as being brave, daring and quite fearsome on the battlefield. In fact I have several books just filled with examples.

I agree with you for sure on the strength issues. There are plenty of weapons women could use just fine, such as a bow. In a pinch, a woman might simply grab her spindle and bop a unwitting raider over the head. One hit from a stone whorl of a spindle, and the raider would be done lol

Neolithic weaponry involves the bow, spear, various forms of war club, and probably more domestic tools, such as a fishing spear, adze, axe and of course knives and daggers.

I agree that women would probably be most likely found in the form of combat whilst defending their Village. I don’t really see large groups of women going on raids, though I find it quite possible one might involve themselves in such activities every now and then. There are many stories of this happening among Native Americans and other groups around the world, so it would be really odd that it never happened during the Neolithic.

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I tried to get into making arrowheads, but it made me so tired I always just ended up knapping instead. (Not my joke, but I couldn’t resist). :wink:

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It is actually pretty easy to do. I have made a few arrows before, but I usually use store bought for my archery lol

i beleve women where very much protectet by the tribe during this era i see women pick up spears was a thing but indeed very rare. i would like to see a tribe dying if important roll would disapear.

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Think in Neolithic humans more like animals that want to survive, think in wolfs, someone think that the female vulpes will not kill for food, hunt, defend, atack…

The ancient humans live and die for sure like wolpacks, with inner organization and rules (each tribe diferent) but with the instinc to survive and every individual is a valid one, a warrior mother, a warrior father…