Competing Religions

Full what if leads to expansions like hypothetical “AC Rome” to be nonsensical, because in your game, starting in Neolithic age, Rome could never even exist, unless if we force it to appear at some point, so it is not anymore a what if situation.

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Yeah, it’s a tough situation.
=/

Yes. I totally see your point and these are not easy decision you need to make.

I see the possibility that with such a (hypothetical) extension “AC Rome” the start of the game could be at a later stage where the culture is already “Roman” like and the religion (or the basics of it that later develop into the full religion) could be part of choosing this culture.

Of course this does not solve the problem when you want to play a from the Neolithic age into later ages and your civilization will become Rome… Historically it would also be hard to say at what point a culture starting in the Neolithic age actually becomes Rome?

I can also see a religion system where the religion develops in stages along with the ages or technologies. Religions could move from a pantheistic/shamanistic type into polytheistic or monotheistic.

Religions could have aspects such as hunting, fighting/war, creation, the elements (water, fire, …), crops, animals, etc. which could be customizable to some extend by the player in the early Neolithic age and with moving through the ages closer to “Roman” time, the aspects take more the shape of the actual Roman religion (which are defined by the game extension). So people in the Neolithic age would worship the fighting/war aspect in some way and later on when moving towards Polytheistic religion this aspect would be covered by Mars the god of war (which is easy for this one!). Some aspects might be given up, others might appear with new culture/technologies.

Sorry these are just some quick thoughts about it and would need further detailing and discussion.

@Uncasual

Those two last posts are rather intriguing, to say the least, and I beg your pardon but I think you told either too much or not enough there.

Currently, we have zero information on what has been thought out regarding religion, so it’s not clear what parts of customization you’re speaking about. We don’t even know if the religion gameplay is fixed now and if you have a clear vision on how you want it to work, or if it is still a sketch or even totally blank.

Would it be possible to present your current plan on that (at least the basic ideas), so that we may have a sound basis to discuss about and avoid fantasizing too much?

On your end, I’m sure it would be better for you, as probably some ideas could be picked there and help filling some voids still left, in case there are still some :slight_smile:

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This is not only about religion, but about any feature that can be configured by the player, and, again, related to the game-play vs realism topic that we should open asap !

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I wouldn’t say that it’s accurate that we have zero information about Neolithic religion. We know that fetishes were used and we know about complex burial practices. Below are a list of some general assumptions that could be made based upon what we’ve found:

  1. Afterlife ( burials, grave Goods, body prep)
  2. Polytheism (different fetishes at same site)*
  3. Ability to affect World via religion (see 1)
  4. Stars connected to gods ( archeoastronomy sites)
  5. A spirit or soul ( depicted avian excarnation)
  6. Fertility, crops as primary topics ( fetishes depict this)

I could probably list a few more, but these are what come to mind. They are hardly descriptive of some Neolithic religion, but they can give you a good feel for what such a religion would probably be like.

  • it is quite true that instead of theism, they may have been completely animists, but the belief in animism is extremely similar to theism in so much as you pray to a power in order to effect change. There are many other complexities that separate these two concepts, but in a primitive fashion they do function similarly. Though I would point out that it’s odd that fetishes created from an animist perspective don’t seem to contain markers denoting there animist origin, such as wave shapes to indicate the fetishes a personification of a lake. Also, one might argue that a anthropomorphic personification of a animist belief of the spirit of some thing, such as the Spirit of a lake represented in the form of a goddess, is effectively the same as theism.
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Errr. I was speaking about the information on religion in-game :yum:

For your punishment (:blush:) would you have a nice summary on Neolithic religion(s), something like an up-to-date article?
I have Demoule speaking about it (hopefully you’ll should get that in March), showing that it’s possible to link religion “advancements” with the level of agriculture mastery and sedentism, but probably it would be interesting to have other sources also.

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lol Whoops!

I must have missed that part. I may toss something together.
Religion is VERY important in Neolithic times, for sure. I wrote a lot about it in my recent archeoastronomy article for my Astronomy club paper.

I’m not sure what I intend with this post, maybe the best would be to consider the whole as a personal post-it to keep track of what I fantasize – meaning there may be severe technical impediment, personal objections by the devs as some parts or even everything may not fit what they envision, etc.

Also, like @Uncasual wrote just above, this is not about religion per se, but more about the historicity/plausibility debate, so I just wanted to keep track of that even if I can’t say what’s be told in this debate depending on any information we’ll have by then. But I think religion gameplay is real akin to societal gameplay in this debate, so I probably could have written the same using e.g. political structures instead of faiths.

Also: this is a utterly personal point of view, so don’t hesitate to criticize what and whenever you want to :slight_smile:

Historicity/Plausibility & Religion (& Society as a Whole)

I really think a number of cases may and should happen, in a few year time, when various DLCs will be piling up. I use a lot hereunder the words “Roman era/Empire”, this meaning “when a Roman DLC will be released”.

  1. If you launch a new game directly in the Roman era: you should have a Roman era religion (as well as social structures, credible political context, etc.). Meaning: everything about Neolithic religion or society should be totally non existent, as you have to begin the game in the Roman times.

  2. In case you launch a game in the Neolithic era, play until the Roman era and are an exceptional good player: you should have the means to impose your own ways to the world.
    This means, if you manage to create an Empire stretching over most of the known world in the fake Roman era, it should be your own gods that are worshiped in the Empire instead of Mars and Jupiter. If your city is in the Alps, it should be the capital of this fake Roman empire. If you decided to be very tolerant towards foreign gods (like Romans were), or if you want to impose your Lone True Faith, so be it.
    But, clearly: this should be hard to attain, because this means you’ll need to impose your rule to most cities surrounding you, so that your city will need to be the political capital for a vast number or them, making progressively your former Neolithic settlement a true urban achievement in later eras. Doing that while the wider world just want to follow the real history means you’ll have to deal with lower relations with other cities, so harder trade, harsher possibilities for alliances, etc. Basically, your in the state of mind: “me against the world”, and have to pay the price. Should be very rewarding to players loving challenges.

  3. In case you launch a game in the Neolithic era, play until the Roman era and are a casual/middle-range player: you should be able to follow your own path, but the probability is far higher that you have to obey to the wide world wishes.
    In clear: you may try to stick to your own gods, but if 90% of your citizens are of foreign origins and still believe in their gods, this mean one moment or another you’ll have to deal with the fact they still revere their own “foreign” gods, and it would be far, far easier to raise one or more temples for them, so that they may be happy and productive and want to stay or to don’t want to overthrow you to impose their view in an uprising or a civil war.
    Eventually, the chance is very high that those gods become the major gods in your own city, due to the immigrants flocking to your thriving town. That’s not a fail in any way, but Realpolitik: an adjustment to the world surrounding you, so that you may go on your own story.
    For the devs, that’s a major way to have historically accurate eras even a few millennia after the game was launched. That, in my sense, would be the direct continuation of the “survival” word in A.C. banner: survival as such will be easier to implement in the earliest phases of the game, when that’s a question of life or death when facing the nature. But this must be pursued in other forms later, just for the sake of avoiding 500,000 citizens city in 1 A.D.

“Competing” Religions

  1. I think it would be a very bad idea to have one lone religion represented in the city. I’m not speaking here about polytheism (various gods), but of multiple religions.
    The Roman era can’t be depicted without Christian persecutions, without Jews synagogues, without Mithra cult sites, e.g. near the legion camps if your city is on the margins of the Empire. But all of those cases are not the same:
  • Greek, Carthagian, Egyptian or Gallic gods, like Mithra, are easy to assimilate: that’s just a question of adding new god names in your own religion. Not a big deal to have one more god in your pantheon.
  • Jews or Christians are a different case. If you play a Jew or a Christian city in a Pagan Roman Empire, you should have to deal with Rome frowning over your debatable choices – and the same if you play a Pagan city in a Christian Roman Empire.
    I’m speaking here essentially about the Roman Empire, but such case were common. Just think about the Levant cosmopolitanism, or the Jews in Babylon, with their own synagogues and courts, like most other communities there in that time. And dealing with Cyrus the Great in the East should allow you to stick to your own religion, while it should be far harder when dealing with Christians in later eras.
  1. Various religions may appear by different means, depending on the historical context.
  • Event-triggered religions: if you play a city in Gaul, you may see Jews appear either randomly, or more forcibly after Jerusalem Temple destruction. Basically, this is only a higher chance to see Jews settling in your town. The case is the same with Christianism.
    Basically, this needs to rely on one event allowing the appearance of immigrants with those faiths, like other events will be needed to give life to the historical times depicted. If you play in Egypt, you’ll have to deal with Intermediate Periods, the Pharaohs power, the Hysksos invasion, etc. If in Mesopotamia, you’ll see infighting between the various city-states, the appearance and crumbling of various Empires. If in Italy, you’ll have to deal with the threat of Rome, deal with the Greek city states, face “barbarian” invasions, etc. Those are the moments you choose to renounce “freedom” to go on, or to fight for your liberty.
    Religion events should be part of that, showing your city in a wider world. During Christian persecutions in the Roman Empire, if you’re a city in the Empire you should have to deal with the changing views of the various Emperors in Rome. It should be your choice to decide if you implement the persecution policy, and whatever may b your choice you’ll have to pay the price (loose Christian citizens of face Rome anger). If you’re the Emperor yourself, then deal with the cities reactions.
  • “Smooth” appearance: for most of the time, other religions should appear very smoothly, depending on your position on the map. If you’re playing near Greece, Egypt or Gaul, you may have citizens believing in the gods from those regions, and you may decide to have a temple built for them if you want to give them importance, or just ignore them and hope they won’t be the majority and take arms to overthrow you to build their temple if you’re too stubborn.
  1. As a conclusion, back to Neolithic: whatever the religion you may define for your own society during the Neoltihic era, you’ll have to deal with immigrants coming from the larger world surrounding your city. This should be considered nearly as a magnet, driving you towards real history. Basically, the choices offered to you could be presented this way:
  • stick to your own faiths and society, refuse any foreign influence, chase away immigrants, don’t answer their desire. Your society will stay “pure”, but the higher risk is you’ll end up like a secondary power on your regional map, submitted to the will of more opportunistic and realist cities able to welcome foreign people, grow, thrice and impose you their will;
  • be opened to the world, play opportunistically, make strategic choices, make concessions to the surrounding world your city lives in, then you may have chances to create on the long term your own world by expanding your range of influence on the neighboring cities and regions.
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I think the beginnings should be forms of the cult of the dead. It would be a personal, individual form of belief. Meaningful for the individual. Religion is not yet this form of belief. Religion is always in a form institution, serving one or more purposes. Does not come “out of” man but “from” and “over” several people. A common superstition can also be called religion. In any case, all forms have in common that they - for lack of evidence - are not verifiable. Pure thought constructs - yet effective by faith sometimes.

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I have no clue what you just said. :slight_smile:

Who says that we have to be real? Take the game Fallout for example, it does not follow this reality, thus why would we be constrained, except by ethics and morality, to follow or on history in a game?

I remember your previous interventions in this topic, I’ll try to propose a counter-argument based on my opinion :slight_smile:

French (I noticed you were from Québec :wink: )
Ancient Cities prend place au Néolithique en Europe, donc une situation ayant précisément existé. Les données historiques (les écrits) sont complètement absentes et les données archéologiques (les vestiges) ne nous donnent qu’une vision partielle de cette époque.
Cependant, le jeu en lui-même doit marcher et le joueur doit s’investir… Pour cela, le plus facile est de représenter, en jeu, les choses qu’il connaît et/ou qui concordent avec les données scientifiques. Ce que je veux dire, c’est que si par exemple, un jeu sur l’Antiquité romaine utilise d’autres dieux que ceux du panthéon gréco-romain, ou que ce sont des régiments qui conquièrent la Méditerranée plutôt que des légions et des cohortes, le joueur va se distancer du jeu et du contenu historique qu’il propose. Soyons honnêtes, beaucoup de backers sont passionnés d’Histoire, ils veulent par conséquent “jouer l’Histoire”, donc pas des faits imaginaires. De mon point de vue encore plus personnel, j’aimerais confronter le joueur à des choses auxquelles il croirait difficilement qui sont pourtant appuyées par des indices scientifiques (pour que le jeu ait une fonction didactique), mais on s’éloigne du sujet.
Il faut cependant prendre en considération le fait que, pour la religion Néolithique, il y a énormément de spéculation. On ne connaît précisément que l’iconographie et les dépôts cultuels, le reste est souvent imaginé en observant des tribus primitives d’aujourd’hui. Cela dit, le jeu a une approche historique, et c’est pour cela que, je pense, nous nous devons de restituer méthodiquement une réalité, et faire des spéculations fondées.
Après, je ne parle pas de l’aspect “Créez votre religion” qui pourrait être très intéressant et fun à jouer mais, je répète, je pense que la véracité devrait primer.

English
Ancient Cities takes place in the Neolithic era in Europe, so a situation that existed precisely. The historical data (the writings) are completely absent and the archaeological data (the remains) give us only a partial vision of this time.
However, the game itself must work and the player must be invested… For this, the easiest is to represent, in game, the things the players knows about and/or that are consistent with the scientific data. What I mean is that if, for example, a game about Roman antiquity uses other gods than those of the Greco-Roman pantheon, or that regiments conquer the Mediterranean rather than cohorts and legions, the player will distance himself from the game and its vision of History. Let’s be honest, a lot of backers are passionate about history, so they want to “play History”, therefore not imaginary facts. From my more personal point of view, I would like to confront the player with things he would hardly believe but that are supported by scientific evidence (so that the game has a didactic function), but I’m digressing.
It must be taken into consideration, however, that there is a great deal of speculation for Neolithic religion. Only the iconography and the cult deposits are known, the rest is often imagined by observing primitive tribes of today. That said, the game has a historical approach, and that is why, I think, we must methodically restore a reality, and make grounded speculations.
I’m not talking about the aspect “Create your religion” which could be very interesting and fun but, I repeat, I think truthfulness should prevail.

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Again sorry late to the game but as I has posted in the sacrifices thread in summery I said.

You need balance not historical period correctness if there are benefits from a religion they need to come at a cost and have consequences.

Example you have selected Christianity and followed it for 500 years and your water supply runs low but the pagans in the next village refuse to let water out of there dammed lake so you invade and take what you deem is rightfully yours. Result no longer thirsty but the benefits to your faith, happiness, moral etc are lost and it will take 500 years to restore them not to mention word spreads to every other tribe Christian and Pagan alike that you have hypocritical religious beliefs in other words your trade is affected or at least questioned.