Religion

CAT SACRIFICES.

Not surprised people are triggered by this, not surprised either its the same people who get triggered without reading the thread properly.

Sacrificing cats to the moon god is an example of a mix and match religious system.

the idea here is that as a leader of a society it is important to let religion evolve as part of your game. It is not a case of ‘we have evidence that civilisation x sacrificed animal y’ we don’t really know why. What we know is the there was a huge diversity of faiths that ordained sacrifices of a wide variety of animals. We have strong Biblical references to this still remaining.
The God of Israel ordained sacrifices of various creatures at various times, sometime specific to gender and colour such as the red heifer sacrifice. Not all these sacrifices are actually understood. Taking Judaism as an example again the concept of the Passover lamb has a historicity to its symbology, however some sacrifices such as the red heifer are simply works of fiat. God required the blood of the red heifer once a year and the Jews didn’t know why.

Now I do think the best way to have religion in game is to allow it to evolve based upon need and an embellished culture. The player decided which religious aspects to focus on, the Moon could be one example given from a long list. The player decided from a list how the Moon is worshiped and why the Moon is especially holy. This develops the mythology and sets standards as to religious service times, frequency and the nature of the religious caste. For example it might make sense to link the cyclic nature of the moon with the cyclic nature of the menstrual cycle and decide that only women were holy enough to lead ceremony. Alternately the moon might be associated with the sea through the tides and be seen as a thalassic deity, and maybe a manly cult.
The player could decide what sacrifices are needed to appease the moon, the pplayer could deceide human sacrifice is necessary, or burn a portion of the city’s grain, or a favoured animal. That favoured animal could be any from a long list. The example I chose was the cat because of the cultural connection between cats and the moon (which is admittedly more modern).

So we come to zomg, sacrifiing teh cats, me triggered!!!

My reply to this is pipe down, we should save mix and match religion because we have the opportunity to show religion from its roots, not (only) imported established faiths, but indigenous faiths established from the first generation onwards. there is enormous opportunity for levity here by allowing as broad a range of worship objects, sacrifices priesthoods etc with the combinations forming a creed automatically. So if you choose Moon cat sacrifice and female priesthood you get a different creed written up about your cities faith than if you chose Sea god, male priesthood and the sacrifice of sharks.

CONSEQUENCES DEVELOPING FROM PLAYER CHOICES

Each player should have options to lead religion down different paths, some would have very heavy societal consequences. Does your city require a sacrifice of the first born to show its faith? Might it be pressured to do so if the culture of first born sacrifice is imported from other cities and ambassadors consider your elders weak because he will not sacrifice their own first born sons like the elders of other cities might do.
How much is that pressure increased or lessened if your city has no culture of blood sacrifice, or if it had regular human sacrifice as part of its established culture.
Do you develop a human sacrifice culture as a secondary means to keep salve populations in line, or to establish a cult of fear for better internal security. Or do you develop a faith where human life is sacred and such a thing is an abomination.
Which animals are sacred to your people and gods, how are your relations with other cities with conflicting faiths. We can return to cat sacrifice here, your neighbours sacrifice cats (or anything else), is that heresy to your people, or just a strange thing they do, or does it make them like minded folks.
Be mindful that animal x could be highlighted not necessarily as a sacrifical animal, but also as an unclean animal or an animal that is holy.

HISTORICITY
While from much later era we can drawn much from Herodotus, and other sources. Herodotus shows us the randomness of myth, how in Egypt some animals were sacred, and one was condemned to death for harming an Ibis for example. The reason for this is extremely convoluted and arbitrary and are in reality meant that the Ibis was chosen at random as holy for mythic reasons. If you want to know more it is because in days of yore (by ancient Egyptian viewpoint) the Ibis would defend Egypt from lethally venomous winged snakes.
This from the games perspective boils down to pick and animal to be holy, or unclean, and pick a reason from a list of myths from the mundane to the outlandish.

Cats are covered here, they were sacred they were also sacrificed by burning, though Herodotus would tell us the cats of Egypt would throw themselves on funerary pyres. Maybe Greeks didnt like to read that Egyptian religion involved throwing cats into fire.
I can understand if the visuals of sacrifice are left to the imagination. A temple need only show four walls and a roof and an evolving holy scripture showing what the player has added over time to the strictures of a city’s cult. As it is basically a text record it can get very diverse indeed and can develop an enormous depth with room for consequences.

Please don’t be narrow minded about this, and one of the advantages of an open ended system is that players can include their own sensibilities and preferences into the mix. This helps as if players invent a cult structure that fits their own mindset and a neighbouring city develops a hostile mindset, then the player gets invested in the struggle of their city against the dark heresies of its neighbours.

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It might not be quite so quartered as that. There’s significant evidence for other essential beliefs from which other things derive. For example, the Moon is often referred to in neolithic artwork, as are snakes. Those are definitely archetypal centers of belief, but there are likely several others which you’re not particularly derivative. Some important centers of belief, such as bulls and bull horns, are of course likely derivatives of more bass beliefs, such as your for mentioned fertility, though this probably refers to the masculine component of fertility and not the feminine component.

It’s a good list, but it probably needs a few extra things added to it.

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There would be a lot of things referenced, various animals, the moon etc. However they would clearly be secondary considerations. The phase of the moon matters and is mystic, but the sun matters more.
Snakes are relevant, particularly if they are venomous or taste good, but hunting is a primal need.

Masculine fertility doesn’t require much embellishment, it happens pretty much automatically. The phallus is important, but the oldest idols found are earth mother statues rather than male imagery.

The vagina is a curiosity due to birth and menstruation, there are a lot of observable secrets to femininity, wheras the penis isn’t a source of much mystery, its obvious in form and function.

The most ancient worship foci will have three characteristic in common, first they will be inescapable important, second they will be mysterious and third they will be subject to predictable change. The latter two factors are linked an important as to become important enough to generate worship there will need to be both unfathomable mysteries to ponder, plus a measure of understanding that can be passed down as wisdom.

Masculinity and femininity will have equal importance, but the penis is not mysterious and the male development is fairly static, also the male sexual role is comparatively minor. Therefore focus on the feminine is likely.
The sun and the moon are both mysterious and changing but the sun trumps the moon in importance. Thus the moon will become secondary
Death ticks all the boxes, as does hunting.

The passing on of the secrets of the mysteries is important throughout as it makes the priestly caste important. Were the sun random for any reason there would be little predictability and thus no wisdom of the priests, but because the sun rises as a precise point and time for each day of the year the priests can show their worth by holding sacred knowledge, as evidenced by the magnificent edifices raised for the purpose.

Can you determine at what point on the horizon the sun would rise tomorrow? I can’t and it isn’t important enough to me to work out where, but an ancient sun priest can and has left henges to prove it, and the knowledge was important to him and in all likelihood his own importance and social worth was based upon it.

Hunting cult worship is of pivotal importance in surviving primitive peoples and this also involves a lot of hidden knowledge, and mystery. Know when to move the camp to follow the herd of the prey beats etc

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I certainly agree with the premise of your statement, but I’m not sure I agree with some of your assertions. I think this list could be broadened, though I do not dispute the benefit of a primitive belief structure isolating the prime beliefs and billing app on them.

I am not sure this can be asserted. They’re plenty of references to the Moon throughout prehistory.

Of course, but I can also point to the location of the Moon. The Moon plays an important role in hunting, and is also cyclical and periodic.

Representation of male fertility was very important, not for the purposes of mysticism or mystery, but because of its requirement for fertility, important to farming as well as other aspects of life. This is why you see it represented throughout Neolithic Society and not as a mere afterthought. There are plenty of figurines and art depicting males. Additionally, lots of iconography and imagery refers to Mills any indirect way, such as bull horns

As far as the sun and the moon are concerned, I could imagine that the moon played the bigger role in hunter communities. Only with agriculture did the sun and especially the sun track become interesting. A farmer needs a more detailed calendar than a hunter.

In a documentation, the origin of Stonehenge was traced back to the fact that there was a small river there. When removing stones from this water, they changed color as they dried. That was unusual and mysterious - mystical - religion. Of course there were many other things, think of thunderstorms and Thor’s Hammer etc.

Overall, I’m not so sure if the average player wants to delve into religion in such detail. It is probably more likely to matter what benefits religion brings than the details of how it works. After all, the goal of the game is to turn a small group of settlers into a (city) state. Religion is certainly present in many ways and helps, but I would delegate it.

Religion would definitely play a rule, do it’s hard to say to what degree. There may have even been multiple coexisting religions, perhaps fully polytheistic situations. Catalhoyuk is a fine example with worship surrounding a bull, as well as a female deity. You typically see both male and female aspects represented in the Neolithic sites.

I believe that ritual would be a major component of a Neolithic Society, based upon grave goods and what’s been found at sitea. I do agree that the detail of each religion may not need to be addressed in so much detail, though personally I would love absolute configurability LOL


to balance the importance a religion with ease of gameplay, using a simplified set of religious variables might be useful:

Focus*: Sky, Moon, Sun, fertility, death, hunting,etc
Religiosity: casual, moderate, devout, fanatical
Priesthood: male, female,all
Sacrifices*: none, objects, animals, people
Ritual frequency*: as needed, daily, monthly, seasonally, yearly

*= check box for multiple options.

A simple tab with something like this would allow both easily programmability and the ability of the doves to Simply add some changes to the behavior as a result of these simple variables. For each Focus, you might also have a option of god, goddess, neutral gender God, or just spirit.

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I love both of @Orlanth ‘s replies and solutions to ingame religion. I personally would love to have religion at least have an affect on the gameplay (and have consequence). I think separating our personal beliefs with in-game religion is key for us to accept any one solution. I think we all frown upon human sacrifice in real life but in game i think that if used as an ultimate sacrifice for faith-building in your town or like as the ultimate price to pay for an affect (eg. you haven’t had rain for a long time and crops are dying or no animals have come around so food is scarce, sacrifice a villager to whatever god you have chosen for a 75% chance of rain or return of animals etc.). Whether we believe in God or Gods or not, I think in game faith having an affect and having actual abilities would be SO cool. Ancient holy writings, oral traditions (for example in the islands, I’m fluent in Samoan and Tongan and there are some incredible stories about the old gods and miracles and things that happened), and depictions show Gods or God doing some MASSIVE miracles. Whether they were natural phenomena or divine intervention, these people believed and there were huge consequences! (Good and bad).

So I agree with @Orlanth and @lotus253 that a mix and match / check box religion system would be SO SICK. And whether it’s Civ 6 style “mix n match your beliefs and bonuses” or fixed bonuses and affects depending on what you worship, the intensity of faith and dedication, the sacrifice, etc having diverse effects…either would be SO interesting and fun.

Like I would love to see if you choose to worship some kind of fertility goddess, the more devout your people the higher growth rate your population has.
Worship the moon? Harvest moon sacrifices bring massive harvest bonuses. Worship the sun? A different bonus. Neglect the Gods or the god that you chose to worship (sun, moon, or whatever)? Negative affect. Wrath of that god until it is appeased.

Y’all feel what I’m saying??

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If there was a problem with contemporarily unsavory practices, such as human sacrifice, perhaps that could be included in the realism DLC I think ancient cities has proposed making.

I very much believe religion should play a major component as all evidence we have suggest that religion played a major component in the lives of prehistoric people. One way to compromise between people who are not fans of bonuses for religion and people who are might be this: a subtle bonus that doesn’t always appear. The more you pray to the gods the more likely it is, but still not guaranteed. As you play you might notice things are getting better in a particular place because of your rituals, but you might not be sure. People would then experience an uncertainty with their belief which would require the player themselves to have a sort of hope, a faith that things are working. That might be a unique way of dealing with religion that is different from other games.

I just can’t wait to see priestesses dancing in a field during a planting or harvesting ritual. I think that would be quite beautiful, especially if it has some nice prehistoric music.

I agree with some of your ideas, and as I agree I won’t repeat them ^^

I have to object on 2 proposals though. I don’t think it would be right to have human sacrifices if we find no clear evidence for the area and timeline AC is trying to recreate. Yes human sacrifices can be game-enticing, meaningful and all. But that is not a reason enough to add them because it is cool, because it is something huge or “for the lolz”. I personnaly care about the teaching this game carries within itself, and that’s why I think that if human sacrifices are not a thing, it would be wrong to depict that they were.

The second objection is about the effects of religion. I very much agree with positive effects like fertility rites improving fertility for example, because they could could work by bringing more awereness about mating, learning about menstrual cycles and other little details that could be implied and not necessarily shown nor depicted. In the other hand, I don’t like direct effects from gods, like the wrath of a god, as you said it. It may be a slip of the tongue, but I think direct intervention from gods on your settlement should be off the table. This would help depict better the History and sociology of religions, immersing the player better (in this same immersive approach, religions are deemed to evolve in upcoming expansions), and spare him from facing another superior entity other than the player himself. Neglecting gods should have an effect on your population and not these gods, pretty much like in Children of the Nile.

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So perhaps praying to God’s could potentially have a beneficial effect if the act of doing so might cause a behavioral change?

Focus - effect

Fertility - crops, childbirth( better survivability and better chance of fertility)
War - most likely to fear the enemy. More courage resulting and more likely victory.
Sun/Moon - crops, hunting, farming in general

Something like that? In each one of these cases, becoming aware of the details that they focus upon through their religion brings about positive benefit by simply being more alert to it.

A religion that focuses upon the Moon or the Sun might spend more time considering the changing of the seasons, which they will likely have lots of mythical stories and belief behind. They might be more in tune with the best times to harvest and plant as a result. They might get a farming bonus that they would a tribute to a god, while in reality it’s simply a result of them being more careful in their understanding of farming. This is definitely a workable solution which might give people the religious bonus they want while not bringing Gods into the equation.

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I would totally agree with the absence of any deus ex machina in the game - this deus ex machina being a flat modifier being applied that would allow a mathematical result.

One clear case to exemplify this would be if e.g. you make a sacrifice or ritual to any god or spirit related to agriculture and are sure to have a 15% higher harvest, or even have a 50% chance of having 15% harvest if you make this sacrifice or ritual.

However, I think like most of you that religion definitively should have an effect on the society you’re progressively building all along the game.

In my view, religion should serve two purpose in the game:

  1. unite the society around common values (but there’s nothing said by the devs around some sort of stability mechanism, so leaving that aside);
  2. define priorities (if you’re nearing the sea shore the society should highly regard everything around fishing; hunting if you’re in a huge forest map; war if you’re a warmonger; farming if the forest disappeared after a time, etc.).

In that sense, I think that this religion discussion echoes what I wrote elsewhere about economic specialization of the societies the nearer you come to Bronze Age. We know for example that Early Neolithic societies had no economic specialties – there were no “potter” per se, only people making ceramics as well as fishing, hunting, farming, etc… During Middle then Final Neolithic, settlements and people became increasingly specialized, when it became obvious that devoting most of their time to make e.g. ceramics or cheese, that could be traded off against another resource, was a viable way to proceed. That’s how whole settlements specialized around cheese, flax fabrics, wool, or flint mining.

What I suggested elsewhere around those economic specialties was to have something like a cap that would prevent any citizen to work more than x% of their time on what would be their favorite activity, the most natural to them according to their competencies. A great hunter should not be able to spend his whole days hunting before the end of Neolithic. Instead, in early game they should be able to work only something like 50% of their time on their favorite task, then with passing time, through e.g. technology progress (let’s say this would be a “social tech”) the cap would be ever higher, until reaching something like 80% of their time devoted to their most natural activity. This way, you could have real fishers, hunters, farmers, miners, etc. And even if warriors were not relevant as a “professional activity” in the Neolithic, nothing prevent you may try to create a warrior society, living by e.g. looting neighboring settlements or forcefully asking tributes to their unfortunate neighbors.

Probably religion should be seen the same way. If you give a huge importance in your game to farming (through rites, monuments, sacred places, etc.), this means you have your society stressing the importance of activities in this field. Having people working more in one peculiar field means they will have higher competencies that can be transmitted to the next generation, etc.
E.g. if you regularly attend farming rituals and have devoted lot of resources on your chiefs burials, this means you’ll have your citizens according more importance to farming and hierarchy, allowing as such your best farmers to use more of their time on farming and allowing higher harvest due to the fact they’re highly skilled, while the burials and hierarchical thing would create a nascent elite and a higher prestige when compared to neighboring settlements, etc.

In my sense, this would allow for a strategic gameplay, provided that each religion-related action would need a serious investment: when you make a farming ritual, that’s not only young boys looking with a natural interest in mind at girls dancing in the fields, that may also be a costly banquet and probably sacrifices reuniting every citizen in a devoted place, a.k.a. sacred place. The same when deciding to stress the importance of chiefs burial, this needs a certain amount of work from the whole community.
In each case, the resources needed for those actions (be it time, people, food, work, etc.) have an obvious cost, so you can’t easily focus on everything in the same time.

In gameplay terms, this means if you decide at first to develop farming so you have more food and more people, you’ll have to wait for developing hunting, fishing or hierarchy. But with your highly productive farmers (as they spend more time they develop higher competencies), you’re able to trade with this neighboring settlement that worked hard on mining.
But you also have to deal with this other settlement that decided to focus early on prestige and elites, and that have the relevant benefits (e.g. more favorable trade deals). This could make your own settlement a simple peripheral of theirs, so you have to decide when the situation’s becoming dangerous for your independence, and when to start launching a prestige race with cultural accomplishments (like building e.g. an enclosure or a menhir).
And, lastly, this would not prevent any polytheistic depiction in game, as you’d have no interest in specializing in one lone field. If you’re a community of highly proficient farmers lacking any other skill, you would have hard time using new techs to build better granaries despite all your neighbors have far more advanced building constructions through their involvement in building or tool-making. The direct consequence is you should define a priority through most impressive rituals and buildings, without forgetting that other aspects should not be utterly forgotten or you’d end up lagging behind, so meaning lot of other minor rituals around hunting, fishing, etc.

(Hmm. Far too long. Once again :laughing:)

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The religious belief system primarily played out in game is atheism. The devs have already declared that your religious practices and choices will not result in miracles, they have no effect at all it is just a placebo. If religion is pure placebo there are no gods.

I can understand that as a mechanic, however religion need not just be a morale modifier, it also effects diplomatic relations and might unlock, or close options both as societal actions and opportunities offered. Based on like mindedness or heretical opposition mostly but due to other factors too.

The story of how Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac occurred because surrounding peoples were questioning the faith of Abraham because his God did not demand the blood of the first born. So with the story of the sacrifice of Isaac under his belt Abraham could show that he had as much dedication as those who sacrificed their first born, but his God didn’t require that type of sacrifice anyway.

Reading between the lines here is you were the king of a city, and you had a child of sacrificable age you might have to choose to do so or not to. While religious the effects are political and deterministic even from an atheistic standpoint. Sacrifice a child and you prove your dedication to other Ensi, not do so and maybe you paint a target on your head as a weak ruler. Human sacrifice in any form other than the sacrifice of a personal heir and you create an atmosphere of fear with all its benefits and side effects, thord party human sacrifice lays a groundwork of fear as anyone could be next. If restricted to the players own heirs this dynamic is absent, so long as no other human sacrifice occurs, but it effects the availability of heirs and may certainly effect their loyalty. We don’t know whether the city leadership is depicted purely through the player of a dynasty but the potential for dad order an heir trussed up and placed in the altar should have major implications. Difficult choices are worthwhile choices for the quality of gameplay.

As always the wisdom of the Greeks applies as shown by the famed theatrical direction : “Medea must not kill her children on stage”. Temples have closed walls, horrible things can be left to a text report, and the ongoing accumulated scripture of the cities faith. Not only will the massively diverse options of how faiths operate be too big to display visually, but a lot of the content could be upsetting, or in the case of child sacrifice illegal in many countries.

Child sacrifice is important to the time period and as with the Greek theatrical notification it is acceptable for it to occur so long as it happens offstage. I want to refer back to the story of of how Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter Iphegenia to Artemis for safe passage for his fleet to Troy.
We can handle this as the ancient Greeks would (admittedly better highlighted in later periods) a player wants to undertake a massive project, such as a fleet invasion, building a massive edifice etc. Maybe they should go on and do it, maybe it requires a sacrifice to complete. Failure to perform the sacrifice once the people or priests demand it is necessary causes morale penalties and any ill luck will be blamed on the player. Say a random event causes a heatwave then (from the Hellenistic point of view for example) then the crops are cursed by Apollo (or Helios), which the priests will assume is caused because the player refused to sacrifice a daughter to Zeus when organising the construction of a towering majestic lighthouse. Now in global myth Apollo is having a spat with Zeus and it is the fault of your city state and leadership that this has occurred.
Myths self expand and take on political events and natural occurances and claim them as religious consequences and the games of the gods.

Every choice in a cities religion can and should have consequences. Psychological effects of blessing and curses should be in game, complete with psychosomatic effects and mitigation by counter sacrifice. An army that marches without the omens to back it should expect defeat and self doubt will cripple its chances for real.
A curse might not effect how the crops grow, but it will effect the efficiency of the harvest. Tell a farmer his harvest is cursed and borderline quality stalks of grain will more likely be condemned than added to store. Human psychology effects human effort in major ways.

I also find myself in complete agreement with cmurrsoultrain that religious choices should result in possible miracles. I think it would add a lot of depth to the game to add a supernatural element, and it is authentic as in this is what the ancient peoples would expect to happen. It should certainly be coded that religion can effect weather, crop yields and other global events.
I would take it no further than that, a sacrifice should be able to improve crop yields, but not turn a hostile Ensi into a friend directly.

However the real miracles option should be a pregame tick box, chosen before play, either your city belongs in the mythic age or as a hardcore sim. I will not say ‘reality’ as the atheists may be wrong and a game is not the best place for that judgement call.

We could go further and have Gilgamesh-esque divine champions with sagas written around them. I would love that, but it would have to be a strictly optional on/off feature. Most likely requring DLC or mod.

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I understand, and I agree with you! Religion being a placebo (the atheistic point of view) is no restraint when considering all these effects.

We certainly aren’t familiar with the same version of the Bible ^^’ Are you talking about the very real events that inspired the writing of the Binding of Isaac passage?

In my opinion, you’re taking literary sources too literally. You cannot cite the Bible or greek tragedies to back up historical facts, even if they relate to religion. They are not accurate depictions of the religious practices of the time. I cannot cite from the top of my head any human sacrifice made in the name of modern (when I say modern, I mean post-scriptures, during the existence and practice of the religion itself) judaism, christianity, or islam (I admit I know less about judaism and Islam but aren’t those three religions supposed to be related? :')
Those texts are not to be taken as historical sources, rather texts that have learnings to them, from which you can build a society, an organised religion. Greek tragedies depict mythical times the greeks were convinced they existed, but we know now that these mythical times were very different from what is told in the epics and plays. Very much like religious texts, we cannot take them at face value, but rather as, again, a spectacle which entertains, serves as catharsis, teaches and gives a sense of community and belonging.


Yes. 100% agree.


Even if I could do with that, I just want to point out that I prefer Children of the Nile’s take on this: if the flood of the banks of the Nile is unsatisfactory, it will cause unrest because they’re convinced you haven’t honoured Sobek right. Now, maybe there is a hard coded modifier that increases your chances of good flood if you build many Sobek shrines/temples, but I do not know about that… (and that is also the main reason why I could do with a system of “miracles”).

Why not, provided they are light enough.

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That’s true.
We will depict personal and social religion consequences, which is enough to give religion the importance it deserves in a realistic way.

This will not happen, but bad or good crops, or other random but natural effects, may be interpreted as miracles and have its religious consequences.

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Not to be pedantic, but atheism is not related to weather there are or are not gods, it only address is whether you believe in them.

Atheism simply means that you do not believe sufficient evidence has been presented for the existence of a deity. The belief that there is, affirmatively, no deity, is anti theism, which is actually more illogical then theism.

I say this as an atheist lol

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We certainly aren’t familiar with the same version of the Bible ^^’ Are you talking about the very real events that inspired the writing of the Binding of Isaac passage?

I am looking at the story of the sacrifice of Isaac (or Esau in Moslem tradition) from the point of view of a religious historian and not a theologist, even though that places me with the opposite hat.

Ok, so straight up. I am a Christian, and do believe in a supernatural God, but I am looking at the story with more neutral eyes.

in these times blood sacrifice as a major part of the religious politics, sacrificing family members meant that you were a hardcore bloke, unafraid to make sacrifices (literally) and make a personal price of burdens. This made you worth following. In a metaculture that honours such sacrifices not doing them would have political consequences. If you didn’t sacrifice a family member at need to the gods, you were a half hearted weak leader, unworthy of following and most likely despised by the gods too.

The Abraham and Isaac story make sense, the God of Israel doesn’t demand human sacrifice, and the story is a work around. You can take it as a God-miracle or as a piece of political spin, it works either way.

In my opinion, you’re taking literary sources too literally.

I totally disagree. These stories would be believed and were relevant to the times. Human sacrifice was not a feature of Hellenistic Greece, but is mentioned from earlier stories, I personally things this helps authenticate them. Agamemnon or the person who resembles the character lived shortly before the Bronze Age Collapse.
Right timeline for this type of behaviour.

Atheism simply means that you do not believe sufficient evidence has been presented for the existence of a deity. The belief that there is, affirmatively, no deity, is anti theism, which is actually more illogical then theism.

In theory maybe, maybe this is how you see it. However in practice atheism has a strong religiosity to it. All too often the same people platform it was a lack of belief not a belief in lack, but then get triggered when facing the religious.
Yes atheism can be strong agnosticism, but it is far more common for atheists to be strongly anti-religious to that extent that there is no difference between their position and that of a hardcore religious fundamentalist.
Richard Dawkins is good example of a religious fanatic who differs from most other religious fanatics only in that he believes that number of gods = 0.
This can visibly occur with atheism as ‘state religion’, most forms of Communism come to mind here.

I do not place the atheism of this game in that category though. The devs are making a pure historical sim and are leaving out unknown factors. I can respect that decision.

I still would like a supernatural mythic version of this game with heroes and active pantheons, but I think that should be late addition DLC or mod.

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Yes, they were believed, and yes they were extremely relevant. Origin myths explain the foundation of civilizations and they were believed to be true. But they were primarily concieved to justify moral decisions, laws, traditions, religious practices, not to talk of the modification of real events into legends, epics and religious texts to strenghthen the sense of belonging into a nation/religion/group.

Mmmh… Not really for the Atlantic Coast nor the Neolithic, not for mythical tales as the greek, or one of the Religions of The Book. However, concerning the island of Ireland and and kind of fitting the late Neolithic-Bronze Age there could be Cú Chulainn’s story, explaining the origin of Celtic Ireland, although this particular hero shows similarities with other indo-european heroes, such as the persian Rostan, or Herakles. This also suggests myths can be originated in languages and oral tradition rather than real facts. The earliest texts on irish mythology can be dated back to the middle ages, and not further.

It is a pretty solid idea, although I think it won’t come out as a DLC; it is not what AC aims for. Still, I’d be very interested in a mod that would bring a modern interpretation of origin myths (also meaning making sense of “godly interventions” and make them believable :wink: ) !

Exciting discussion, many good arguments from all.
I think too

The topic is just too complex.
There is the faith of every single member of society. Then the religion. Then the impact of religion on society, both internally and externally. Does religion play the same role for each individual? Is the people a sect or a community? Example “curse” - one is depressed, the other laughs and curses back. I think a “divine power” that controls everything we can exclude, so a human sacrifice will only benefit or harm the spectators. It will not affect the course of the sun, the harvest or the weather. But the interpretation of an “enlightened one” must be believed - or not. That’s just how religion works.
In our time, we have more knowledge, which automatically makes us atheists - from a Neolithic point of view. But that’s where the core of the problem of playability lies. Or better, the understanding of requirements for authenticity. Guess, this is very individual and can only be presented as an option or DLC.

And we should not forget that religion has been hampering development and progress for hundreds of years. Using the example of the decay of the Roman Empire, we see how the introduction of a state religion was directed towards tolerance and progress. Result was “the dark Middle Ages”

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Tolerance had nothing to do with it even then.
Religion of itself is usually harmless, it is the political ends to which it is put.

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Not to beat a dead horse, but finally just read the other responses that have happened since I last checked.

All I’m saying is, seek and ye shall find. If you seek proof there is no god, you’ll find things that support that. If you seek proof there is a god (or gods) you’ll find it. I believe in Christ. I could list off so many personal proofs and miracles that prove to me God is there but in the end it’s up to the individual to choose.

I would just appreciate that those of all faiths (including atheism, agnosticism, or anti-theism (because all those beliefs are exactly that—beliefs— belief whether there is higher power or not. None of us having any unquestionable proof for or against)) would avoid swinging blows at the Catholic Church (I’m not even catholic) or state religion or organized religion or atheism etc basically just don’t take shots at other people’s spiritual beliefs

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